Worth knowing: People perceive silence similarly to how they perceive sounds
Jul 16, 2023 at 6:11 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 36

GeorgeA

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At the euronews site, under health section, there’s a post about a recently published paper that sheds light on the age-old question: is silence a sound?

The paper has been co-authored by Rui Zhe Goh, Ian B. Phillips and Chaz Firestone and published as a research article in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS).

Euronews has got access to the full text of the paper and highlights that “like optical illusions that trick what people see, auditory illusions can make people hear sounds as being longer or shorter than they actually are”. Also, “while the study offers no insight into how our brains might be processing silence, the results suggest that people perceive silence as its own type of “sound,” not just as a gap between noises”.

As I’ve got a Smyth Research Realiser A16 unit, which provides illusions of virtual speakers, now it’s clearer to me what happens when sounds go away.
 
Jul 16, 2023 at 12:10 PM Post #2 of 36
I’m probably a little candide about silence as I never imagined it as actually existing. When your environment goes quieter and quieter, at best you end up hearing yourself after a while. So in practice I thought that silence was really auditory masking, something loud enough would help mask the smaller sounds for long enough that we call what comes after, silence for a while.

So of course I would have guessed that silence and sounds were treated in similar ways. Has to be if silence is quieter sound that’s still registered somewhere. ^-^’
It’s one of those moments when suspicious assumptions make complicated questions look easy.
 
Jul 16, 2023 at 11:53 PM Post #3 of 36
I visited Carlsbad Caverns once, and part of the tour involved the tour guide telling everyone to be totally silent while he turned off all the lights thousands of feet underground. The silence was deafening and my eyes kept darting around trying to find something in the pitch black. It was really weird. The Eskimos talked about "sounding silence". It was when fresh snow made everything quiet and you could hear the inside of you really clearly.
 
Jul 17, 2023 at 2:27 PM Post #4 of 36
I don’t know if “is silence a sound?” is an age-old question.. Per definition silence is the absence of sound. So it is not a sound. End of story. Just as darkness is the absence of light.
Here is a video of someone going into an anechoic chamber and her brain starts to hallucinate after a short time. The brain is confused about the situation, and tries to make sense of it.



Of course, we cannot test how a person would perceive total silence, since their own bodies will always create some sort of sounds, like heartbeat or digestion, which will then be perceived. The tester says at 4:52 min that your neurons are always firing on a low level, creating the sensation as if something was perceived even if there was nothing. This will probably become the dominant process after a while, resulting in the amplification of these low level sensations, leading to hallucinations.

Also, it would be absolutely unnatural (from a biological point of view) for a brain to experience total silence. I don’t understand why there is an interest in that question.
 
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Jul 17, 2023 at 8:35 PM Post #5 of 36
Entering an anechoic chamber for the first time is an intense experience. However, the more time one spends inside such environments, the milder the effects becomes, because the brain learns to accept it as one acoustic environment. I have spent countless if hours inside anechoic chambers while working in the acoustics lab measuring loudspeakers etc. To me anechoic chambers are just VERY quiet and damped rooms. Going inside one is like coming out of a very reverberant church, a huge drop in the reverberation.

However, I haven't really tried staying inside an anechoic chamber in darkness for a long time. I don't really know how I would react to such situation. Anyway, anechoic chambers are not that scary places after you have gotten used to them.
 
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Jul 19, 2023 at 8:45 AM Post #6 of 36
This perceptual view with "silence sounds" to be perceived must be from a time when people didn't know about sound waves. And the rest of the Significance paragraph is full of unclear wordings that do not make it interesting for me at all.
 
Jul 20, 2023 at 12:23 AM Post #7 of 36
Actually, the experiments and findings reported in that paper were carried out by academics dealing with psychological and brain sciences and not from the perspective of sound recording engineers.
 
Jul 20, 2023 at 3:47 AM Post #8 of 36
"Our approach was to ask whether our brains treat silences the way they treat sounds. If you can get the same illusions with silences as you get with sounds, then that may be evidence that we literally hear silence after all,"

"Treat" isn't exactly "perceive". Isn't then what they found out that these auditory illusions take place on the cognitive side? Maybe there the brain already handles the non-existance of things as a thing, and so the illusion works on silence, too. -- Or the illusion exists as two symmetric versions, like an off-version for sounds and a mirrored on-version - also for sounds, not for silence. So that the delayed treatment of a sound doesn't necessarily mean that the silence was treated as sound.

I'm not understanding what they want me to think. I don't think I'll start believing the perceptual view or whatever must have taken place a long time ago.

The results might explain “why when you are walking down a busy street, and you walk inside a quiet space, you are kind of hit by the silence, and why the moments of silence during a theatrical performance or a musical piece exert such a strong force,” he adds.

I like this framing much more.
 
Jul 20, 2023 at 4:51 AM Post #9 of 36
Actually, the experiments and findings reported in that paper were carried out by academics dealing with psychological and brain sciences and not from the perspective of sound recording engineers.
Or from the perspective of physicists, acousticians, audiologists, psychoacousticians and various other types of engineers and professions.

It appears to be a thoroughly bizarre paper, it’s titled “The Perception of Silence” but not one of the experiments actually even presented the test subjects with any silence, let alone investigated the perception of it! They effectively define “silence” as audible noise! They investigate the perceptual impact of the presence and absence of specific sounds in addition to this audible noise and then discuss/conclude on the basis that the absence of the specific sounds is “silence”, which of course is completely fallacious because they’re ignoring the audible noise. This quote typifies the problem:

Our approach speaks first and foremost to the perception of particular, contrastive silences—that is, silences corresponding to the temporary absence of specific environmental sounds, such as a conversation, a musical performance, or the noise of a restaurant.” - Here they spell out their definition of silence as the “absence of specific environmental sounds”, which of course isn’t silence. Silence is the absence of BOTH specific and non-specific (audible) sounds! For example, pauses in a conversation does NOT result in silence, it results in whatever specific and non-specific sounds exist in the environment where the conversation is taking place. Even in an anechoic chamber, you’re not left with silence, you’re left with at least the movement and breathing sounds of the participants in the conversation. Same with “a musical performance”, you’re left with all the environmental sounds of the audience and performance venue. In a restaurant, removing the specific environmental sounds of the restaurant leaves you with non-specific environmental sounds of the restaurant plus extraneous environmental sounds, such as traffic noise, weather, other nearby leisure establishments, etc. And, they spell out this interpretation:

“These are the silences we meet with in ordinary life, and they are also among the silences deemed impossible to perceive by the philosophical tradition which motivated our work.” - We don’t meet silences in ordinary life, “ordinary life” is not living in an anechoic chamber, it’s virtually always at least an audible noise floor.

Elsewhere they detail exactly what they tested, which was actually two forms of “silence” (neither of which were actually silence!):

1. “Embedded Silence” - Which is a deliberately audible noise floor embedded in the test files, constructed from “ambience” sound samples downloaded from an online sound effects library.
2. “Pure Silence” - Which is the absence of the added ambience above in the audio files, EG. Digital silence.

It should be noted that as far as I can see, this was an online experiment/test, the subjects performing the tests in their own homes/environments. Therefore, even the “Pure Silence” tests were not actually silence, it was whatever noise/noise floor existed in the subjects own listening environments and I would hazard a guess that not a single one of them was a very well constructed anechoic chamber!

The answer to all these seemingly bizarre definitions and non-science is that this is NOT a Scientific Paper! The second part of the last quote above indicates this is a Philosophical Paper, not a Scientific Paper. The “philosophical tradition” might deem these audible silences to be “impossible to perceive” but science certainly doesn’t, a relatively simple controlled blind test would easily prove it. Not to mention countless tens of thousands of film and TV engineers over the course of 90 odd years who’ve been manufacturing and tweaking these “silences” (room tones and ambiences) that apparently were impossible for them to perceive!?

G
 
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Jul 20, 2023 at 5:23 AM Post #10 of 36
The affiliations of co-authors are as follows:

Rui Zhe Goh1 rgoh1@jhu.edu
Department of Psychological and Brain Sciences, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD 21218
Department of Philosophy, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD 21218

Ian B. Phillips1,2 https://orcid.org/0000-0003-2932-8045 ianbphillips@jhu.edu
Department of Psychological and Brain Sciences, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD 21218
Department of Philosophy, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD 21218

Chaz Firestone1,2 https://orcid.org/0000-0002-1247-2422 chaz@jhu.edu
Department of Psychological and Brain Sciences, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD 21218
Department of Philosophy, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD 21218

I think anyone might send comments to the above-mentioned email addresses.
 
Jul 20, 2023 at 7:52 AM Post #11 of 36
I think anyone might send comments to the above-mentioned email addresses.
Why do you think anyone of us might send comments to the authors of those (arguably) uninteresting experiments?
I don’t think anyone here feels the urge to do so.

Maybe you could just tell us, in your own words, what you want to say by dropping an article whose authors do not even understand the difference between “silence” and “perception of audible noise”?

Wikipedia has the following to say about euronews.com

Mário David, the father of Pedro Vargas David (CEO of Alpac Capital), is a long-time associate, advisor and friend to Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán.[48] According to Ágnes Urbán, director of the think tank Mertek Media Monitor, Euronews risks being exploited as a "pseudo-independent" media outpost of the government of Hungary, where it maintains a semblance of independence, but takes a "far less critical" stance with regard to Hungary and other so-called illiberal democracies.[49]

Suspicious and lead by an agenda, enough for me to keep away from them.
 
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Jul 20, 2023 at 8:01 AM Post #12 of 36
I don’t think anyone here feels the urge to do so.
Actually I feel a bit of an urge. I’m not going to act on it though, I don’t have the time for a discourse with a bunch of philosophy grad students about what the word “silence” actually means!
Suspicious and lead by an agenda, enough for me to keep away from them.
Not sure what their agenda is, their reporting of this paper was rather shoddy but media reporting of scientific papers/discoveries are often pretty shoddy.

G
 
Jul 20, 2023 at 8:10 AM Post #13 of 36
Not sure what their agenda is, their reporting of this paper was rather shoddy but media reporting of scientific papers/discoveries are often pretty shoddy.
Their site is full of Money and “Biz” articles, which to me is a capitalistic agenda.
Being a friend to Viktor Orban clearly is an anti-democratic agenda to me.
Much on their site looks like tabloid-press, looking for catchy phrases to create hypes and to “stun” readers.

edit: I was only looking at their /next section https://www.euronews.com/next/ from where the article is from.
Not sure about their toplevel domain. Haven't looked through, but probably not much better..
 
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Jul 20, 2023 at 8:22 AM Post #14 of 36
I think judging from the setup a nice headline could have been something like "You know why it's easy to understand ellipses in music? Your brain helps you." But they tried to answer a philosphical question, of which there are many. I find the experiments interesting from what I know, just not in way they presented it.
 

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