[bigshot]

That is very odd. I wonder what in your system is knocking phase out of whack. That should be a given. Have you checked your setting with a null test?

 

[Ghoostknight]

That is very odd. I wonder what in your system is knocking phase out of whack. That should be a given. Have you checked your setting with a null test?

i think its the reconstruction filter of the dac, tho im not sure how much common reconstruction filter mess with phase, i currently use the apodizing one of the Aune X8 since it also sounded "stock" (without phase alteration) the best but the phase shifting made a sonic impact nearly as "bad" as the different reconstrution filters by themself

tho im kinda certain that with the topping d10 i had perfect phase out of the box (well kinda, it was perfect phase but inverted) but i missed the impact for a while till i discovered recently the phase issue since i got the Aune X8, could the Aune X8 mess with phase without the reconstruction filter involved? tho it might be a good idea to measure the dac output before making assumptions..

 

[alexj87]

Some nice tracks shared on this thread! I don't know how to listen analytically, so I just listen to the songs I like. If they sound good to me, that's great. In my opinion, these kinds of topics are more about sharing music than finding ways to detect "good equipment", here's my tidal playlist:
https://tidal.com/playlist/54c5f9f2-35fc-44ac-afa3-720074c01697

 

[gregorio]

i think its the reconstruction filter of the dac, tho im not sure how much common reconstruction filter mess with phase

Linear phase filters by definition do not change the phase at all. Minimum phase do affect phase but minimally, typically only in the very high freqs and are inaudible. Audible phase in DAC reconstruction is a red herring!

I wonder what in your system is knocking phase out of whack.

Almost certainly the recording because phase is virtually never entirely coherent in any greater than mono recording. Of course though, where in the spectrum the phase issues occur and how severe they are completely varies from recording to recording. The other place for phase issues is room acoustics or even just sitting somewhat closer to one speaker than the other or altering the position of the headphones on your ears. Crossovers between drivers also often creates phase issues/group delay.

There are a lot of places for phase issues to occur but typical for the audiophile world is to misunderstand what they are, when and where they occur and when/where they might be audible, mis-identify them and then look in completely the wrong place for them (EG. DACs or ADCs)!!

Changing the global phase by some amount makes no audible difference. It’s only changing the phase of say one channel (or output) relative to the other channel that can make an audible difference or some extreme filtering/EQ in the lower frequencies (way below Nyquist freq) at high amplitudes, under certain conditions.

G

 

[bigshot]

Setting it to -4 isn’t going to fix the recording, and I think just using the proper filter is the most effective way to insure correct phase.

 

[peterinvan]

If you really want reference level, you should move off Tidal to Qobuz.

Patiently waiting for full res FLAC on Tidal

I have invested years in curating my playlists on Tidal, and I like the suggestions it serves up now.

I have backed up my Tidal playlists to .CSV files (using Roon).

 

[FunkyBassMan]

Patiently waiting for full res FLAC on Tidal

I have invested years in curating my playlists on Tidal, and I like the suggestions it serves up now.

I have backed up my Tidal playlists to .CSV files (using Roon).

Hopefully Tidal gets the message. There's been enough uproar that they certainly should.

In the meantime, conversion is extremely simple with some great online tools.

 

[gregorio]

Setting it to -4 isn’t going to fix the recording,

If he’s only applying it to one channel or to part of the spectrum then it might make some recordings technically better and others worse or marginally improve (or marginally make worse) room acoustic issues but to such a tiny degree I doubt it would be audible under any real world circumstances. However, he seems to be applying it to both channels equally and throughout the freq spectrum, which is not going to make any difference to anything!

and I think just using the proper filter is the most effective way to insure correct phase.

It’s a red herring, no anti-image filter I’ve ever seen/heard of is going to make any audible difference to phase. Rare types of anti-image filters (the very early roll-off ones) can make an audible difference but that’s due to the reduction in high freqs, nothing to do with phase.

Patiently waiting for full res FLAC on Tidal

Why, don’t they already provide 320kbps streams?

G

 

[Ghoostknight]

However, he seems to be applying it to both channels equally and throughout the freq spectrum, which is not going to make any difference to anything!

yes, just a uneducated guess but some people say humans are more sensitive to phase issues, say under 1-3khz, if i correct phase for "bass" (which i basicly do with this one hardcore test song) it could be actually more audible than the phase offset on higher frequencys.. which might sound overall more beneficial

tho, longterm i wanna get more into REW/correction, so its probably a good idea to see if i can measure phase and get a more meaningful conclusion (and maybe even a more accurate correction )

apodizing filters are also minimum phase filters so to a little degree those mess with phase (tho i also dont know to what degree), i havent checked the phase correction with other filters since i just messed with phase as i found the "perfect sounding" filter ootb for me (and there seems to be alot of differences between filters, some can sound like they have more bass, other shrill highs, one sound like a really funky phaseresponse (actually another minimum phase filter), beside the more obvious issue of not enough roll off
apodizing filters are basicly "improved" brickwall filters and i guess no preringing plays a big role here why it sounds superior

 

[gregorio]

yes, just a uneducated guess but some people say humans are more sensitive to phase issues, say under 1-3khz,

Firstly, what “some people say” has no validity in this or other science discussions because “some people say” that cables burn-in, that they can hear what is inaudible or that the Earth is flat.

Secondly, what people are actually sensitive to is phase differential issues, NOT the same relative phase. So if you are changing the phase of one output relative to another, there can be an audible difference, depending on the amount but if (as you are confirming) you’re applying the same phase change to both/all the outputs then the relative phase of your outputs is identical.

if i correct phase for "bass" (which i basicly do with this one hardcore test song)

How are you correcting phase for only the bass? Also, how do you know what correction is required, as commercial recordings are mastered and therefore phase differentials are correct/intentional and if intentional, will be different with different recordings? And lastly, if as you indicate you’re applying the same phase change to all outputs then you’re not changing or correcting anything, as the phase relationship/differential is identical.

apodizing filters are also minimum phase filters so to a little degree those mess with phase (tho i also dont know to what degree)

They change the phase relationship to a small degree and in the very high freqs, (where they roll-off) so typically above around 17kHz and are inaudible.

G

 

[Ghoostknight]

Secondly, what people are actually sensitive to is phase differential issues, NOT the same relative phase. So if you are changing the phase of one output relative to another, there can be an audible difference, depending on the amount but if (as you are confirming) you’re applying the same phase change to both/all the outputs then the relative phase of your outputs is identical.

absolute phase is a audible thing imo, specially with speakers

How are you correcting phase for only the bass?

since i adjust the phase so the (bass)drop of my test song sounds/hits "the hardest", so i guess i ultimatively tune the phase to specially the bass

Also, how do you know what correction is required, as commercial recordings are mastered and therefore phase differentials are correct/intentional and if intentional, will be different with different recordings?

"absolute phase" is the important thing here... 100% correct absolute phase, if recordings/engineer mess with phase thats fine (and inversed phase is also very much audible, specially with correct absolute phase), but hard hitting (correct phase) basses should also hit like the engineer intended too
Circio`s Rapture - Polarity Check ... the phase of the instruments constantly change around in this one

And lastly, if as you indicate you’re applying the same phase change to all outputs then you’re not changing or correcting anything, as the phase relationship/differential is identical.

its not about differential phase issues specially in high frequency, its just about absolute phase which might be more audible in lower frequency ranges and specially bass
i just say, audible the phase sounds "better" now, for whatever reason in the end, but drops definetly hit harder (which is just one audible thing, instruments also sound more natural for example) with the -4 degree setting

They change the phase relationship to a small degree and in the very high freqs, (where they roll-off) so typically above around 17kHz and are inaudible.

ah good to know if its true, im curious too where the phase offsets comes from then tho, worst case its a room interaction that might be just audible with some frequencys i guess

EDIT/PS: i also struggled hard to hear absolute phase at first, in first sight test i would say its equivalent audible than a +0.2db eq but if you know what to look out for it becomes way easier to hear and specially longterm you get "used" to correct phase, specially if you listen to much "technical" music i would say
tho it also becomes apparant that not that many mess with phase unless for example a inversed bass guitare or some spatial stuff, but some also mess heavly with phase
i think thats also one reason why i dislike most hardcore/hardstyle songs i liked a few years, some songs sound really flat/boring while others sound more "dynamic" and i think one reason might be the use of phase stuff more

 

[Elegiac]

I doubt I'll ever be able to tell if music is 'out of phase'.

 

[gregorio]

absolute phase is a audible thing imo, specially with speakers

If there is no phase differential there is nothing audible. With speakers there are always phase differentials (except in an anechoic chamber), between the direct and reflected sound for example.

since i adjust the phase so the (bass)drop of my test song sounds/hits "the hardest", so i guess i ultimatively tune the phase of specially the bass

Unless you are changing the phase of the bass relative to the higher freqs, then by definition you are not adjusting the phase of the bass, you are adjusting the phase of the entire spectrum. And again, unless you are adjusting the phase of a channel/output relative to another channel/output then you are not “ultimately tuning” anything, the phase relationship is the same!

"absolute phase" is the important thing here... 100% correct absolute phase, if recordings/engineer mess with phase thats fine (and inversed phase is also very much audible, specially with correct absolute phase), but hard hitting (correct phase) basses should also hit like the engineer intended too

There’s no such thing as “100% correct absolute phase”, unless it’s a mono recording made with a single microphone and no processing. Inverted phase/polarity is “very much audible” and quite commonly applied by engineers (in certain conditions) but ONLY to certain tracks/microphones in the mix to change the phase relative to other tracks/mics, otherwise there’s no point because it makes no difference!

its not about differential phase issues specially in high frequency

Great, the exact opposite. It’s ONLY about differential phase issues!

im curious too where the phase offsets comes from then tho, worst case its a room interaction that might be just audible with some frequencys i guess

Room interactions/acoustics can have “phase offsets” between the direct and reflected sounds resulting in huge differences of 20dB or more, as the phase differential causes “nulls” and “sums”. In the recordings themselves, a phase offset occurs whenever recording a musician or group of musicians with two or more mics, due to the fact that two mics obviously cannot occupy exactly the same point in space and therefore the sound produced by the musicians will arrive at the different mics at slightly different times.

G

 

[Ghoostknight]

I doubt I'll ever be able to tell if music is 'out of phase'.

on audiocheck.net is a blindtest for absolute phase, but i find it unnessecary hard with the provided sample to hear absolute phase...
the best songs i can give right now are definitely
Alien-T - The Hammer of the Devil (watch out for that drop..it needs to hit hard, reversed phase and it sounds way softer or might even be less audible) i also think this drop is a very good transient response test..
Circio`s Rapture - Polarity Check (overall a good test, specially because its rapidly changing phase in the song itself, tho it might be hard to tell what is actually the right absolute phase here)

there are many other good songs if you know them well, but these 2 are probably my top 2 for phase
if you like bass, there are a lot bass"samples" out there that make use of phase stuff... tho it might be not very apparent at first

 

[Elegiac]

Hmm. I just learned.