Testing audiophile claims and myths
Feb 13, 2024 at 9:44 AM Post #17,266 of 17,336
It sounds like your listening is pretty unfocused. I find it’s better to isolate problems and attack them with specific solutions based on facts. Random actions bring random results. I don’t have time for that. I’d rather do research, listen to the advice of people who understand things I don’t, and apply logic to solve the problem.
 
Feb 13, 2024 at 9:58 AM Post #17,267 of 17,336
Unfocused? So someone listening with iem's for many years can't tell when a new earphone sounds grating. I listen to music everyday sometimes for many hours.

If someone explains step by step I'll test the cable and compare it to another, so long as I don't have to buy anything too expensive.
 
Feb 13, 2024 at 10:07 AM Post #17,268 of 17,336
One thing I've heard repeated amongst music listeners is trust your ears!
If you guys were local I'd happily let you test the cable in question as it's going to cost a few bob buying equipment I'll likely never use again.

Will these do @KinGensai ? And then I'd need to download the Deltawave Audio Null Comparitor and test the cable against anyone that sounds ok as I don't want to keep pulling the new cable out of the sockets.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/AH-D9200-Connected-Headphones-Connector-3-5mm-0-78mm-Black/dp/B0B24ZNPB3/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2QFLJR04517QW&keywords=Pair+Gold+Plated+3.5mm+To+0.78+Converter+Adapter+for+M1+M2+ZX-
Ok, hold on a bit, this subforum has been down this road before, so let's take some time and plan this out before doing anything.

First, let's establish the facts in evidence. As I understand it, you are claiming that your Oriolus Mellianus' sound started as unpleasant, then through years(?) of use it has improved, right? At first the argument you were presenting here was that of burn-in & tips, and now you are making the claim that your choice of cable has changed the sound, right? The ship has sailed in regards to burn in given that you have not measured the IEM immediately upon receipt and tips impact the problem but are not sufficient. If anything I stated here is inaccurate, correct the record.

Now, let's confirm the hypothesis. Switching from the provided cable to another aftermarket cable has reduced the "harshness" of the IEM, by which I presume you mean the IEM exhibits an elevated response in the upper mids and lower treble region (2kHz to 8kHz?), is this correct? If it is, the hypothesis then necessarily has to be that the cable is the sole causal factor inducing this change.

Since you claim nothing else you tried has worked, we have to isolate and test the cables to see if they inherently affect an analog signal, which is why I suggested you try a null test. Just to be clear, what I'm talking about here is to plug your cable in to your source as you normally would, then plug the 2 pin connector + 3.5mm adapter into your computer's ADC port and record 10 seconds of a test track. Repeat for each cable, then use Deltawave to run the null test. Make sure to sync up the experimental tracks in Audacity as best you can so you avoid getting a false positive. Showing some significant difference outside of some nominal level of aliasing/reconstruction filtering in the FR approaching the nyquist frequency will serve to prove your hypothesis correct, whereas no significant difference will prove the null hypothesis (it's not the cables).

I'm not sure of what others will think of this, but a failure to show any difference in this null test will not necessarily mean that there is no actual difference because the Mellianus may be uniquely susceptible to impedance imbalance. This is just speculation, but that imbalance may be caused by the passive crossover Oriolus used, so some more sophisticated testing will be required to go that far, which is something someone else will have to help with (I'm already pushing the limits of my layman's understanding of this field).

Do you agree with all of this? If you don't, let's talk about it.
 
Feb 13, 2024 at 11:08 AM Post #17,269 of 17,336
Ok, hold on a bit, this subforum has been down this road before, so let's take some time and plan this out before doing anything.

First, let's establish the facts in evidence. As I understand it, you are claiming that your Oriolus Mellianus' sound started as unpleasant, then through years(?) of use it has improved, right? At first the argument you were presenting here was that of burn-in & tips, and now you are making the claim that your choice of cable has changed the sound, right? The ship has sailed in regards to burn in given that you have not measured the IEM immediately upon receipt and tips impact the problem but are not sufficient. If anything I stated here is inaccurate, correct the record.

Yes from new I was unimpressed with them, all my other iem's sounded as good or better and they cost considerably less. So I used them on and off and sometimes let them play hoping usage might settle them, a few times I was almost wincing from the brittle/thin sound. I tried a cheap copper cable which sounded better but swopped back to check after folk here said it wouldn't be the cable, and couldn't be certain there was a difference. Have tried a considerable amount of different makes of tips and sizes and thought I'd solved it with the last ones which were slightly bigger, but these still weren't sounding anything like totl iem's. They were just kind of meh and thin/harsh.

Now, let's confirm the hypothesis. Switching from the provided cable to another aftermarket cable has reduced the "harshness" of the IEM, by which I presume you mean the IEM exhibits an elevated response in the upper mids and lower treble region (2kHz to 8kHz?), is this correct? If it is, the hypothesis then necessarily has to be that the cable is the sole causal factor inducing this change.

The iem after just a short while doesn't sound pleasant and even with the best tips and seal I'm glad to take them out. Their graph shows an elevation around 3.5k and 7k so I've even slightly reduced these regions with eq but they still sound boring and not very musical.
On a whim tried another cable from same manufacturer and detected a slight difference straight away, swopped back and could hear the slight harshness once more.

Since you claim nothing else you tried has worked, we have to isolate and test the cables to see if they inherently affect an analog signal, which is why I suggested you try a null test. Just to be clear, what I'm talking about here is to plug your cable in to your source as you normally would, then plug the 2 pin connector + 3.5mm adapter into your computer's ADC port and record 10 seconds of a test track. Repeat for each cable, then use Deltawave to run the null test. Make sure to sync up the experimental tracks in Audacity as best you can so you avoid getting a false positive. Showing some significant difference outside of some nominal level of aliasing/reconstruction filtering in the FR approaching the nyquist frequency will serve to prove your hypothesis correct, whereas no significant difference will prove the null hypothesis (it's not the cables).

Sounds a good idea though would even a null test show this type of issue? I really thought it pointed to a defective cable, maybe not properly shielded but others pointed out it would be very obvious if a cable was defective. Now I'm really starting to like them a lot.

This is my Computer IO,

ROG STRIX Z690-F Gaming WiFi Rear panel.jpg
 
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Feb 13, 2024 at 11:24 AM Post #17,270 of 17,336
Ok, the Mic In port is what you are looking for. Looks like you'll be using your motherboard's audio hardware.

The null test is going to show what the cables do in vivo, so to speak, so it's the most relevant test for confirming the hypothesis. Once this is confirmed, you'll either have an answer or a subsequent question as to what's going on here.
 
Feb 13, 2024 at 3:04 PM Post #17,271 of 17,336
Ok, the Mic In port is what you are looking for. Looks like you'll be using your motherboard's audio hardware.

The null test is going to show what the cables do in vivo, so to speak, so it's the most relevant test for confirming the hypothesis. Once this is confirmed, you'll either have an answer or a subsequent question as to what's going on here.

What differences do you think the null test will show between the cable in question and another taken off a different iem?
 
Feb 13, 2024 at 4:09 PM Post #17,272 of 17,336
Again with the attacks on Gregorio? Is it all we can hope to see you post in here? The diva that was virulently doing the same has been shown the door. You're going to be next soon if you keep this up.

Couldn't you disagree without the insults? Or better yet, try to read his posts not to find an opportunity to roast him, but to try and understand what I tried to mean?
Sound is a physical event, air pressure changes and such. In that way, it's real. Music on the other hand is a concept. We have expectations about what is and isn't music, usually influenced heavily by education. To me, not all sounds are music.
You could easily argue that what happens in the brain is electrical and chemical in nature, and that real events lead us to think of something as music. I'm fine with that, but not with the insults.
You could also take the idea that our own experience of reality is the only reality we'll ever know and the only real thing in our lives.
There are many ways to skin that cat. None of them requires insults.
First, this is an attack on his ridiculous statements, not on him. I never criticize him personally. I only chime in when he comes out with incredibly stupid comments. There is plenty more to disagree with, but I only step in at his worst, over-the-top moments.
Second, he tears people apart daily unfairly. Yet you just let him go without the slightest comment.
Why can't you run a fair forum?
 
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Feb 13, 2024 at 5:27 PM Post #17,273 of 17,336
First, this is an attack on his ridiculous statements, not on him. I never criticize him personally. I only chime in when he comes out with incredibly stupid comments. There is plenty more to disagree with, but I only step in at his worst, over-the-top moments.
Second, he tears people apart daily unfairly. Yet you just let him go without the slightest comment.
Why can't you run a fair forum?
Reason one:


Second reason:
He does contribute a lot.
I don't remember you helping someone with a question, or sharing interesting information on a topic in this section. He did and does it a lot. I do remember you cheering anybody going against gregorio, and insulting him. That's what I remember you as right now. Not a charming summary. In my eyes, the both of you do not have the same value as a member of this forum. I don't know if it's fair, but I think it's right.

Reason 73b:
The perception of him living a free, happy life, and you being threatened, is your own, not a reflection of reality.
I just checked in the last year, out of 10 reports against you, In only 2 instances did your posts get removed(and one wasn't me). Every other times you went far enough that someone felt the need to report your post, I went "nah fam, iz good". Often not because it was cool, but because missiles were flying in all directions and I didn't want to single you out, or have a chicken&egg moment trying to figure out who started it months and hundreds of pages ago.
In the same period, Greg got like 3 times more reports, and nearly 2/3 of them ended up with his post vanishing.
He spends too much time destroying people, sure. And he does get in trouble for that. Quite seriously here maybe every other year, and the rest of the time, some posts get removed, he gets a few warnings here and there like you did. But each time he's in trouble, for all the people who hate his guts and are happy, I also get PMs of people telling me he's a main reason why they stick to this forum. Because with him, they often learn stuff.

And outside of Sound Science, his posts bordering on bullying and personal attacks(or just looking a little too objective) tend to survive as long as a pedestrian on the highway.
So overall, you're not having a hard time at all. If all you bring to the forum is "look how stupid gregorio is! AH AH!", I think you've done that enough. It's time to stop and maybe post something useful in this subsection for a change. You don't even need to agree with objective stuff, there are several guys I disagree with on many subjects who are, IMO, important contributors and interesting people.
 
Feb 13, 2024 at 6:50 PM Post #17,274 of 17,336
First, this is an attack on his ridiculous statements, not on him. I never criticize him personally. I only chime in when he comes out with incredibly stupid comments. There is plenty more to disagree with, but I only step in at his worst, over-the-top moments.
Second, he tears people apart daily unfairly. Yet you just let him go without the slightest comment.
Why can't you run a fair forum?
I don't know how castle can run this forum when he has limited abilties. When it comes to gregorio, he can be very knowledgable, but then he can also be condescending with subjects he doesn't really know. My first experience was an interaction about consumer blu-rays; he wound up not knowing that blu-ray protocols allowed for PCM and lossless audio. He's also tried to tell me how VFX studio NDAs work, when I've actually interacted with them. Or more recently he's talked down to me how Dolby Atmos works for consumers. From what I've read, he's sent an ADM to Netflix and Amazon: and he now thinks he knows how that works with consumer audio. So from what I can understand, he doesn't know that it gets rendered to the DD+ 5.1 stream and Atmos JOC 16 object stream.

About the only exchange I've had with him that didn't involve a page of responses was my claim of 8-bit micro computers being common place as 8-bit was also standardized for characters. Original ascii wasn't 8-bit, but by the time of the micro-processor, extended ascii was very common (and he wanted to have some argument about original ascii).

So these are impressions of my issues with gregorio. I wish he would be less condescending: but he can bring up good arguments, and certain philosophical insight is good.
 
Feb 13, 2024 at 7:50 PM Post #17,275 of 17,336
What differences do you think the null test will show between the cable in question and another taken off a different iem?
I really don't know, I'm biased toward no significant difference given my own experience, but that experience is also limited so I'm open to the possibility of being wrong. It's also conceivable that something has been added to the cable to cause a perceptible difference, not that difficult to imagine since USB dacs have become so compact and passive components can be integrated into tiny PCBs and the like.
 
Feb 14, 2024 at 3:33 AM Post #17,276 of 17,336
The two examples you bring up are great points illustrating how geographically and culturally isolated populations demonstrate the reality defining nature of bias.
Yes, although I would add “time” to the mix. People from the same geographical location and culture will define music differently at different points in time because preferences, ”fashion”, definitions, acceptability, etc., all evolve over time. This is obvious with popular music genres, even over relatively short time spans but it’s always been the case. Arguably the most obvious example; play Beethoven to almost anyone, even a millennial who doesn’t particularly like classical music, and they will define Beethoven’s compositions as classical music. Indeed many would describe them as quintessentially defining examples of classical music but in his day Beethoven was a “radical”, so much so that some questioned whether it even was music, rather than just sounds/noise. Ruskin, one of the most influential critics of the time stated: “Beethoven always sounds to me like the upsetting of a bag of nails, with here and there also a dropped hammer” and he was certainly not alone, in fact on at least one occasion Beethoven’s publisher refused to publish a new composition without substantial changes because it was too radical to be appreciated by consumers in it’s original form. Of course, this seems absurd to us today, Beethoven’s compositions are stereotypical classical music.
For instance, in western art music we have the phenomenon of harmonic vs disharmonic chord progressions and the utilization we see in the west of these musical patterns in conjunction with emotional states and moralistic judgements.
Indeed, the history western classical music can be viewed entirely from the perspective of the evolution of dissonance and consonance and the “resolution” from the former to the latter, although this diatonic/tonal basis of western classical music started breaking down in the latter part of the C19th and was deliberately discarded/avoided by many composers in the C20th. We see a similar thing to consonance/dissonance and “resolution” in other cultural music traditions, although not with western chord progressions of course, it maybe done structurally, melodically or rhythmically. Incidentally, those BBC experiments can’t be replicated today, it takes relatively little exposure to western diatonic/tonal music to become acclimatised to it, many culturally diverse/traditional music genres have been influenced by it and today there is almost no one who hasn’t been exposed to it.
One thing I've heard repeated amongst music listeners is trust your ears!
Yes, it is very common in the audiophile community, because it’s extremely easy to misrepresent its original intent/meaning and fulfil a vital marketing role. “Trust your ears” to tell you about subjective preferences/perception has been misappropriated to mean “trust your ears” to tell you what’s actually occurring in reality. Ideal for audiophile marketing purposes when in reality nothing is actually occurring, there are no audible differences, but manipulated biases can cause significant differences in perception. Taken as this misappropriated meaning, then your quoted statement is effectively an oxymoron, if you really could “trust your ears” to tell you the actual truth/objective reality, then you couldn’t be a “music listener”, you would not be able to appreciate what you‘re listening to as music, you would just hear semi-random sounds/noise devoid of any meaning (without any intellectual, emotional or enjoyable content/response). So, this meaning cannot be correct, which is why science (and us here) requires something that can “tell you the actual truth/objective reality”.

It should be noted, that it would be possible to design IEMs in such a way as to make them sensitive (to the point of audibility) to relatively small differences in cable construction/specification, thereby making the requirement of “the right cable for the job” more complicated than just buying any other IEM cable. Although one could argue that such a design would be at least partially incompetent or even defective. I have no idea if this is the case (or why it even would be) in this instance but we can’t absolutely dismiss the possibility, albeit a remote one, without some reliable evidence.

G
 
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Feb 14, 2024 at 4:14 AM Post #17,277 of 17,336
@gregorio
This is IIRC, but non-linear impedance in hybrids and tribrids seems to be a common issue that arises due to the different drivers being connected together into a single passive crossover circuit.
Hd081a0b086cc4eb6ad64722e9eea94ca8.jpg_640x640q90.jpg

This is a page from a spec sheet for a Sonion EST65DA01. Both my IEMs use two of these units alongside custom BAs, I can only imagine what kind of technowizardry went into making those sound as incredible as they do.

I'm a bit confused by that "trust your ears" argument. I was with you until you say that being able to trust your ears to determine facts of reality would preclude your ability to be a music listener. I'm trying to parse that syllogism, and I'm probably missing something because it's not making sense.

- Human perception of sound is a combination of objective sense data and subjective value judgements.
- Humans can not separate this perception into it's individual components.
- If humans could separate sound perception into discrete components, then humans... must necessarily do so?
- Therefore, said humans' capability to separate the objective from subjective allows them to "trust their ears" at the cost of not being able to return to their original state(?)
 
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Feb 14, 2024 at 5:40 AM Post #17,278 of 17,336
Yes, it is very common in the audiophile community, because it’s extremely easy to misrepresent its original intent/meaning and fulfil a vital marketing role. “Trust your ears” to tell you about subjective preferences/perception has been misappropriated to mean “trust your ears” to tell you what’s actually occurring in reality. Ideal for audiophile marketing purposes when in reality nothing is actually occurring, there are no audible differences, but manipulated biases can cause significant differences in perception. Taken as this misappropriated meaning, then your quoted statement is effectively an oxymoron, if you really could “trust your ears” to tell you the actual truth/objective reality, then you couldn’t be a “music listener”, you would not be able to appreciate what you‘re listening to as music, you would just hear semi-random sounds/noise devoid of any meaning (without any intellectual, emotional or enjoyable content/response). So, this meaning cannot be correct, which is why science (and us here) requires something that can “tell you the actual truth/objective reality”.

It should be noted, that it would be possible to design IEMs in such a way as to make them sensitive (to the point of audibility) to relatively small differences in cable construction/specification, thereby making the requirement of “the right cable for the job” more complicated than just buying any other IEM cable. Although one could argue that such a design would be at least partially incompetent or even defective. I have no idea if this is the case (or why it even would be) in this instance but we can’t absolutely dismiss the possibility, albeit a remote one, without some reliable evidence.

G

If I listened and compared music between the two cables over just a few hours when new then I wouldn't have used the phrase 'trust your ears', I used the term as I've been listening and playing with these earphones for nearly 18 months and feel I know them well, as mentioned finding good tips took them so far and I thought the issue was solved, even though I still didn't think they measured up well against other iem's which were half the price.

Maybe your last paragraph is getting to the crux of the matter, and with respect you and Bigshot rarely if ever listen with small earphones and so are taking your views from much more solid performing gear which behaves more predictably.
I've now been using the new cable a few days and haven't yet heard the abrasiveness I did before with the supplied (bundled) cable. This might show something as before after trying many different tips after a while the issue was still there, though improved, after an initial short period of being distracted by a better fitting and shaped tip.
 
Feb 14, 2024 at 2:19 PM Post #17,279 of 17,336
I was particularly interested in methods for analyzing the null that could separate linear distortions from nonlinear distortions.
I did a bit of digging around and it seems like deltawave can kind of do it as well. It actually lets you to compensate the spectrum (both magnitude and phase) of the compared signal. This means you can suppress the differences coming from linear distortions quite well. Ideally, that would leave you with only differences caused by nonlinear distortions.
 
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Feb 14, 2024 at 2:54 PM Post #17,280 of 17,336

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