[Thomasr]

I recently had an experience that has made me seriously question my DAC snobbery ...

I have the SMSL DO200mk2 DAC as part of my main listening rig. About a month ago I found an ooooooold thrift store Pioneer DVD player to use as a "CD transport" feeding into this DAC (since I still own a decent CD collection that had been collecting dust).

Everything works great, and here's something I've learned over the last month: if I set my DAC to -5.5db output level, the volume exactly matches that of the DVD player plugged directly into my amp (SMSL HO200) via the RCA inputs. So if I have the DAC plugged in via XLR, I can toggle the XLR/RCA input switch on the amp and have a perfectly gapless, perfectly volume-matched A/B testing rig.

I honestly really want to believe I can detect a difference, but in truth I don't think there is any (or at least nothing these ears can parse). I know the DO200 isn't top-of-the-line, but still, it's "supposed" to sound better than the DAC built into a decades-old commodity DVD player isn't it?

 

[Lindholdt]

Yep, I have a switcher where I can switch instantly between sources, and once you get a proper volume match, my ears can't detect difference between most DAC's. I have tried 3 ESS based DAC's, the Chord Mojo and the AKM 4499EX from my Q15, and only with the Q15 am I able to hear a very slight difference, I think.
So now I'm just considering DAC's for the looks, feel and features they offer.
That switcher is saving me a lot of money.

 

[chesebert]

I recently had an experience that has made me seriously question my DAC snobbery ...

I have the SMSL DO200mk2 DAC as part of my main listening rig. About a month ago I found an ooooooold thrift store Pioneer DVD player to use as a "CD transport" feeding into this DAC (since I still own a decent CD collection that had been collecting dust).

Everything works great, and here's something I've learned over the last month: if I set my DAC to -5.5db output level, the volume exactly matches that of the DVD player plugged directly into my amp (SMSL HO200) via the RCA inputs. So if I have the DAC plugged in via XLR, I can toggle the XLR/RCA input switch on the amp and have a perfectly gapless, perfectly volume-matched A/B testing rig.

I honestly really want to believe I can detect a difference, but in truth I don't think there is any (or at least nothing these ears can parse). I know the DO200 isn't top-of-the-line, but still, it's "supposed" to sound better than the DAC built into a decades-old commodity DVD player isn't it?

Few things: People used to mod these. On their own without mod, they are meh as CDP and not great as CD transport. You are making a mistake if you are feeding your modern dac with a bad source. Use a modern CD transport or network player and you will hear why no one bother with these since mid 2000s. It’s time to move on.

 

[Thomasr]

Few things: People used to mod these. On their own without mod, they are meh as CDP and not great as CD transport. You are making a mistake if you are feeding your modern dac with a bad source. Use a modern CD transport or network player and you will hear why no one bother with these since mid 2000s. It’s time to move on.

My listening chain will take one of 4 configurations:

1. Android phone running Deezer HiFi -> Bluetooth LDAC -> SMSL DO200mk2 -> XLR -> SMSL HO200 -> headphones
2. Android phone running Deezer HiFi -> USB -> SMSL DO200mk2 -> XLR -> SMSL HO200 -> headphones
3. Pioneer DV-333 -> digital coax -> SMSL DO200mk2 -> XLR -> SMSL HO200 -> headphones
4. Pioneer DV-333 -> RCA ->SMSL HO200 -> headphones

Between these, I can detect (or fool myself into believing I detect) 2 as being slightly more spacious and less "muddy" than 1. Similarly, I feel like 3 is slightly more "liquid" and musical than 2 ... but I'm open to the possibility that controlled A/B testing (were I able to set it up) would reveal that "difference" to be pure imagination. And per my initial post, as much as I want to believe that 3 is of higher quality than 4, I don't think I can believe that anymore.

 

[dunring]

A DAC just does one thing, try to turn digital to analog without adding distortion. When you have one like the DO200, that's all there is to it. If you're playing a CD in Redbook format, and the same FLAC on a high end DAC, volume matched in a blind test I'd put money you couldn't tell the difference. If you really want to test yourself Archimago has a big DAC blind listening test to participate in, you'll be surprised trying the different sample files.

 

[chesebert]

My listening chain will take one of 4 configurations:

1. Android phone running Deezer HiFi -> Bluetooth LDAC -> SMSL DO200mk2 -> XLR -> SMSL HO200 -> headphones
2. Android phone running Deezer HiFi -> USB -> SMSL DO200mk2 -> XLR -> SMSL HO200 -> headphones
3. Pioneer DV-333 -> digital coax -> SMSL DO200mk2 -> XLR -> SMSL HO200 -> headphones
4. Pioneer DV-333 -> RCA ->SMSL HO200 -> headphones

Between these, I can detect (or fool myself into believing I detect) 2 as being slightly more spacious and less "muddy" than 1. Similarly, I feel like 3 is slightly more "liquid" and musical than 2 ... but I'm open to the possibility that controlled A/B testing (were I able to set it up) would reveal that "difference" to be pure imagination. And per my initial post, as much as I want to believe that 3 is of higher quality than 4, I don't think I can believe that anymore.

I have been where you are now and I can say it's a phase. You should try the first gen PS1 as a CDP and you will probably be surprised how smooth the sound is. Stereophile once did a review of PS1 and the reviewer said the unit sounded like a $6k CDP. The exercise was helpful to understand spending more does not always mean better sound. However, once you have heard some real high end kit like Weiss, Linn, Playback Designs, Emm Labs, MSB, you will understand why dac/source matters and the difference is really night and day. In other words, once you start acquiring better gear you will figure things out on your own. Enjoy the process.

 

[Lucus]

A DAC just does one thing, try to turn digital to analog without adding distortion. When you have one like the DO200, that's all there is to it. If you're playing a CD in Redbook format, and the same FLAC on a high end DAC, volume matched in a blind test I'd put money you couldn't tell the difference. If you really want to test yourself Archimago has a big DAC blind listening test to participate in, you'll be surprised trying the different sample files.

Sometimes a bit of distortion make the sound nicer and more natural...There are distortions in the real world, not coming from the electronic...Hence sometimes DACs with not so good measures (R2R, tube outputs etc...) may sound better/more natural, for ex. by adding 2nd harmonics to the sound
My 2 cents....

 

[TheMiddleSky]

That switcher is saving me a lot of money.

Sometimes I wish I can't differentiate DAC sound too, literally will save me a lot of money more than any switcher.

-----

Personally, many DAC under $500, especially the chifi DAC that brag about measurement a lot, may sound similar to each other (still not identical though). While in realm of DAC more than $3K, especially those who use their in house design (not chip based) sound drastically different one to each other.

The general term is Sabre usually sound a bit cold/dry, happen a lot with <$500 chip based DAC. it's not generalise though. Chip may affect the sound, but it's only one part. There are whole parts of output stage to determine how the DAC sound too. Cayin CS100 DAC with Sabre ESS9038 may become the "warmest/wettest" sounding DAC under $3K, even in solid state mode.

A DAC just does one thing, try to turn digital to analog without adding distortion.

No, that's what chip do, only try to convert the data. The whole DAC itself, need Output Stage to produce voltage. This Output Stage consist of multiple parts and will affect sound significantly.

If you see the internal of Cayin CS100 DAC, the Sabre Chip (with the size of finger tip) is doing the digital to analog conversion, while the Output Stage (basically all other parts inside that big DAC aside of PSU) processing the analog signal to feed the amp.

 

[]eep]

I recently had an experience that has made me seriously question my DAC snobbery ...
...

I honestly really want to believe I can detect a difference, but in truth I don't think there is any (or at least nothing these ears can parse). I know the DO200 isn't top-of-the-line, but still, it's "supposed" to sound better than the DAC built into a decades-old commodity DVD player isn't it?

First: just enjoy your find. It's not easy to find an old optical player that still works well for beer money. That's like finding an old jazz record in near mint condition. Not one of those 'best of' but an original.

So, it works, and you enjoy it. That's a good place to start.

Then comes the 'but'...
Your ears are probably fine. But is the gear you use just as discerning as your ears are?

Not to mention the training of the grey matter in between your ears... Or learning to appreciate the finer things in life. When you're a child you look at a van Gogh painting or a Picasso and you say: I can do that too. But then you try and it's not quite the same. Later you learn to place them in context, learn about the time, the materials, the paint they made from raw materials, perspective, the color wheel, symbology, etc... Then you see them in a whole new perspective.

When you listen longer you'll start to notice certain things. First I started to think there was something wrong with my ears that when I turned up the volume it felt like my ears started to clog. Or my old humpback Sony tv had those sounds with certain frequencies. Later I learned that was saturation. And resonance of the plastic tv box. Once you hear it you can't unheard it. Like: this milk is off, this garlic is old, this meat was in the freezer too long, this wine has added sugar, this pasta is not from hard wheat. You can consume it but you won't enjoy it anymore.

I remember we used to go cycling with friends in Germany at the end of the seaso. We always stayed at the same place with nice rooms and good food. One night we arrived we got a big slab of meat drowned in a thick sauce with vegetables like straight out of a glass jar. The others were all happy with that big lump of meat. But I tasted it was off. So when I talked to the cook I whispered in german: "That meat has been in the freezer way too long huh?" He whispered back: "yeah, I told the boss he couldn't serve that but he told me use it anyway". I didn't want to ruin the mood but that food was cheap and cheerless. Fortunately that was only once.

A few decades ago cd-quality was considered high-end. I remember Goldmund had a very expensive cd-player that sounded excellent. The reviews said they could hear the Swiss engineering quality. As it later turned out it was a very heavily engineered case with a simple mass produced Pioneer DVD-Player inside. Think of that what you will.

Now the quality of streaming and downloads has improved a lot. And DACs even more. Most CD's from the 90-ies to now don't sound that great because of compression and over-engineering. Before that digital recordings were no higher than 16bit. Deezer is about the same quality.

I'm sure you can hear the difference once you use properly mastered recordings, especially real HD material (>96kHz) on a higher tier system. Or a good vinyl setup. But that's even more expensive and takes even more knowledge.

With budget gear you'll be listening to a lot of NE5532 opamps in multiple places. These are fine in general, very cheap, but a definite ceiling on resolution and transparency. If you would like to broaden your horizon on how music can sound I advise you to go and visit a dedicated audio store of a Hifi show. It's fun, doesn't vost all thatuch and will be a real eye opener. Not to mention that you have the chance to meet other hifi nuts. This is a hobby where you always meet very decent people who are just enthusiastic about their hobby.

 

[OnlySoMany]

In my personal experience, there are two facts.

One, that it's all about your ears and what you like to hear. If to you, a $500 dac sounds better than a $10,000 one, more power to you. We are all here to enjoy the hobby, not accuse others of what they can and cannot hear. Enjoy it and buy what you like. If you find that experience at a cheaper price point, awesome!

Two, better components scale with a better signal the higher up you go. For example, in a $50k system you would likely notice the weakness of a $500 dac. But likely not in a $2,000-5,000 one.

System matching is key, and you can fine tune what you hear with pretty much any one change. Power cords, conditioners, interconnects, cables, pads, brand name sound signatures, these can all have a effect on the sound.

Glad you found a dac you like!

 

[]eep]

In my personal experience, there are two facts.

One, that it's all about your ears and what you like to hear. If to you, a $500 dac sounds better than a $10,000 one, more power to you. We are all here to enjoy the hobby, not accuse others of what they can and cannot hear. Enjoy it and buy what you like. If you find that experience at a cheaper price point, awesome!

Two, better components scale with a better signal the higher up you go. For example, in a $50k system you would likely notice the weakness of a $500 dac. But likely not in a $2,000-5,000 one.

System matching is key, and you can fine tune what you hear with pretty much any one change. Power cords, conditioners, interconnects, cables, pads, brand name sound signatures, these can all have a effect on the sound.

Glad you found a dac you like!

I don't disagree, but I like to nuance that a bit. And pull some definitions straight.

On 1:
Your hearing is not your ears. Perception is done by your brain. Your ears are just the receptors. The enjoyment does not rely on the ability of your ears. I know of a man who is totally deaf who enjoys music. He 'listens' by holding a balloon.
Just as Jimmy Cliff sang: "you can do it if you really want". But therein lies the rub. Often it's a psychological barrier. People feeling inadequate is mostly just insecurity, and a common reaction is accusing others who can of snobbery. That imho is just a lazy form of envie.

Anyone with an open mind will enjoy good sounding music better than bad sounding. Only when they hear the price, knowing that they can never afford it, then all sorts of coping mechanisms start coming into play. That's when a person's character shows.

On 2:
Scaling does not really corellate with price. I made a system for a friend with speakers, amp, phono and turntable for $100 total. I made the speakers with el cheapo Philips paper woofers with a stamped basket, new Chinese Cu-Be tweeters with only one mkp cap. The amp is $10 class D with BT. But you hear EVERYTHING with that set. It scales like crazy. I had them in my system and it showed everything.
Cheap does not mean bad, but you need to avoid bells and whistles. Keep it simple. And build from there. But for that you need knowledge, experience and critical listening skills.

A top chef can cook a kings meal from the simplest ingredients, a burger flipper probably can't cook anything decent or tasteful from the best ingredients.

Talent and effort.

 

[OnlySoMany]

I don't disagree, but I like to nuance that a bit. And pull some definitions straight.

On 1:
Your hearing is not your ears. Perception is done by your brain. Your ears are just the receptors. The enjoyment does not rely on the ability of your ears. I know of a man who is totally deaf who enjoys music. He 'listens' by holding a balloon.
Just as Jimmy Cliff sang: "you can do it if you really want". But therein lies the rub. Often it's a psychological barrier. People feeling inadequate is mostly just insecurity, and a common reaction is accusing others who can of snobbery. That imho is just a lazy form of envie.

Anyone with an open mind will enjoy good sounding music better than bad sounding. Only when they hear the price, knowing that they can never afford it, then all sorts of coping mechanisms start coming into play. That's when a person's character shows.

On 2:
Scaling does not really corellate with price. I made a system for a friend with speakers, amp, phono and turntable for $100 total. I made the speakers with el cheapo Philips paper woofers with a stamped basket, new Chinese Cu-Be tweeters with only one mkp cap. The amp is $10 class D with BT. But you hear EVERYTHING with that set. It scales like crazy. I had them in my system and it showed everything.
Cheap does not mean bad, but you need to avoid bells and whistles. Keep it simple. And build from there. But for that you need knowledge, experience and critical listening skills.

A top chef can cook a kings meal from the simplest ingredients, a burger flipper probably can't cook anything decent or tasteful from the best ingredients.

Talent and effort.

If you say so

For the other 99.9999999999% of us, what I said is correct.

 

[Currawong]

Much of one's perception depends on how exposed one was to music as a child. I was exposed to actual instruments, so my sensitivity to smaller differences is greater than someone who wasn't.
As well, a lot of modern music isn't recorded and mastered in a way that preserves detail. It's just not a priority. An actual, live performance sounds shockingly different to what we hear through headphones.
That all being said, you aren't going to be able to hear much difference through cheap headphones anyway.

 

[Thomasr]

That all being said, you aren't going to be able to hear much difference through cheap headphones anyway

What constitutes "cheap" in this context?

 

[Lindholdt]

What constitutes "cheap" in this context?

Obviously, all the ones you and I have, as we can't hear a difference