Dali's Soft Magnetic Composite Driver
Apr 1, 2024 at 11:49 AM Post #31 of 231
Any reason not to recommend any headphones of choice with a Bluetooth adapter/receiver?

G
You can run into latency issues, compatibility, etc. On a budget they work just fine.

But it’s like using a Web App vs a Native IOS app or Android. (E.g. Facebook.com web on your phone vs Facebook App)

The WebApp works fine, but something specifically designed for it works better.
 
Apr 1, 2024 at 12:08 PM Post #32 of 231
You can run into latency issues, compatibility, etc. On a budget they work just fine.
Latency isn’t an issue when playing music and I’m assuming a dongle will have the same potential compatibility issues as having it built into the headphones?
But it’s like using a Web App vs a Native IOS app or Android. (E.g. Facebook.com web on your phone vs Facebook App)
The WebApp works fine, but something specifically designed for it works better.
I’m not sure what you mean by “works fine” vs “it works better”, is there actually an audible difference or is this just an audiophile belief/myth? A web app for example can work just as well as a native app, although it may not be as efficient under the hood.

G
 
Apr 1, 2024 at 12:14 PM Post #33 of 231
I use my AirPods Max as much for late night TV as I do music. They work with Netflix.
 
Apr 1, 2024 at 1:40 PM Post #34 of 231
Latency isn’t an issue when playing music and I’m assuming a dongle will have the same potential compatibility issues as having it built into the headphones?

I’m not sure what you mean by “works fine” vs “it works better”, is there actually an audible difference or is this just an audiophile belief/myth? A web app for example can work just as well as a native app, although it may not be as efficient under the hood.

G
That actually presents something for me to think about!
When I looked up the Fiio BTR 7 specs the one KinGensai recommended, it has a Qualcomm QCC5124 Bluetooth chip.
Sennheiser Momentum 4 Qualcomm's QCC5141
Focal Bathys Qualcomm chipset QCC 5127
Dali IO-12 supports APT codecs so it has some kind of Qualcomm BT chip, and previous iterations had QC chips.

The Bluetooth adapter I got ultimately has the same Qualcomm Bluetooth chip as the headphones that have it built in, maybe different versions and iterations.
From my understanding so far, the result should be the same since they are both utilizing Qualcomm's chip?

Feel free to give me some insights to further my understanding of this subject.
Would Bluetooth data being sent from the phone to Bluetooth DAC/AMP essentially be digital audio? and then once the data is received, it is converted by the Bluetooth adapter/receiver into electrical audio signal towards the headphones.

The concept is ultimately the same for BT headphones just that the phone sends digital audio via BT -> Bluetooth Headphone DAC converts to Analog.
I use my AirPods Max as much for late night TV as I do music. They work with Netflix.
That sounds like you have a winner that handles both tasks!
 
Apr 1, 2024 at 8:19 PM Post #35 of 231
The advantages of NOT using a BT adapter receiver and having a real BT/ANC headphone is that with a BT/ANC headphone you don't need a cable at all -- with the adapter you still need a cable that is going from the headphone or earphone to the adapter, so you have 3 objects (the headphone/IEM, the cable and the adapter).

With a BT/ANC headphone you have all the playback controls in the headphone so you don't need putting an adapter in your shirt, jacket, pocket or similar, and maybe even sometimes worrying about the cable. Using the playback controls from the adpater is ok or not so great depending on type of adapter and the location of this. If you have a BT/ANC headphone, the playback controls are on the headphone, always in the same position. I'm a person that is changing volume ALL the time (and tracks, too, but less constantly) and this feature, with good implementation, is absolutely critical for me -- in my long experience with many BT/ANC headphones, the iO-12 and H95 offer the best user experience for playback controls (the iO-12 have clearly superior sound quality than the H95).

With a BT/ANC headphone you have very more battery life (20-70 hrs depending on the model) from one single charge, and with ANC headphones you also have active noise cancellation (ANC) and transparency modes. Because BT/ANC headphones have a very more big battery, the battery can lasting many years (5 or 10 years or more) without needing replacement or even losing capacity; and some companies, like T+A and Dali, offer replacing the battery service (for a price) when a new battery is necessary.
 
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Apr 1, 2024 at 8:38 PM Post #36 of 231
@gregorio
As far as SQ goes, aptX HD (24/48 576kbps) is the codec that's audibly transparent compared to wired to me, SBC is quite bad because of audible treble roll-off and IMD artifacting. AptX HD was pretty new when I bought an ATH-DSR9BT a while back, I think it's pretty much standard now with Qualcomm chipsets.
 
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Apr 1, 2024 at 10:03 PM Post #37 of 231
The advantages of NOT using a BT adapter receiver and having a real BT/ANC headphone is that with a BT/ANC headphone you don't need a cable at all -- with the adapter you still need a cable that is going from the headphone or earphone to the adapter, so you have 3 objects (the headphone/IEM, the cable and the adapter).

With a BT/ANC headphone you have all the playback controls in the headphone so you don't need putting an adapter in your shirt, jacket, pocket or similar, and maybe even sometimes worrying about the cable. Using the playback controls from the adpater is ok or not so great depending on type of adapter and the location of this. If you have a BT/ANC headphone, the playback controls are on the headphone, always in the same position. I'm a person that is changing volume ALL the time (and tracks, too, but less constantly) and this feature, with good implementation, is absolutely critical for me -- in my long experience with many BT/ANC headphones, the iO-12 and H95 offer the best user experience for playback controls (the iO-12 have clearly superior sound quality than the H95).

With a BT/ANC headphone you have very more battery life (20-70 hrs depending on the model) from one single charge, and with ANC headphones you also have active noise cancellation (ANC) and transparency modes. Because BT/ANC headphones have a very more big battery, the battery can lasting many years (5 or 10 years or more) without needing replacement or even losing capacity; and some companies, like T+A and Dali, offer replacing the battery service (for a price) when a new battery is necessary.
Thank you Angelom for sharing your personal experience and thoughts. You are absolutely right about the benefits of battery life, most bluetooth headphones like Sony XM5, Dali IO-12, Beoplay H95, Momentum 4, Focal Bathys, etc typically have battery life in the 30 hour or more range and all support fast charging.
Bose Quietcomfort Ultra is listed as 24 hours, but some reviews say they can last 27-29 hours. That is definitely a huge advantage over the BT receiver I currently have.

Also the ability to the change battery in a BT headset is amazing. I took a look online and saw that Dali, T+A, Focal offer such services. Focal is around $99 but others are probably in the same ballpark.
@gregorio
As far as SQ goes, aptX HD (24/48 576kbps) is the codec that's audibly transparent compared to wired to me, SBC is quite bad because of audible treble roll-off and IMD artifacting. AptX HD was pretty new when I bought an AT-DSR9BT a while back, I think it's pretty much standard now with Qualcomm chipsets.
Hey Kin, I can definitely set my Fiio adapter on aptX HD! From what I saw it supports aptX HD, LDAC, aptX Adaptive.
 
Apr 2, 2024 at 3:25 AM Post #39 of 231
SQ it will be better LDAC
Not necessarily. At lower bit rates, aptX adaptive and SBC outperform LDAC because Sony chose to have the codec switch between three bitrates (330, 660, and 990 kbps) as the data stream fluctuates which causes artifacting. aptX adaptive fluctuates between a range of bitrates freely (279 to 420 kbps) so it doesn't have those same artifacts.

If you are streaming lossless files, LDAC is the better choice. If you are using MP3 320k or AAC 256k, AptX is good enough.
 
Apr 2, 2024 at 6:14 AM Post #41 of 231
From my understanding so far, the result should be the same since they are both utilizing Qualcomm's chip?
Yes, although that should be true of any Bluetooth chip. Like USB, Ethernet and other protocols, it’s a quite complex hierarchy of standardisation development. You have an international organisation (in this case the Bluetooth SIG, Special Interest Group) comprised of study, expert and working groups, and a membership that votes on their proposals and research findings. Then it’s passed on to a major international standards organisation, in the case of Bluetooth that would be the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers), to further examine and then ratify it as an “international standard”. In order to legally advertise your device as “Bluetooth” it must comply with the published standards and be “certified” (by the Bluetooth SIG). So intrinsically any Bluetooth chip must perform its task identically, however in practice that’s not necessarily the case for two reasons: First, there’s nothing to stop a manufacturer from bolting on their own audio protocol in addition to what is defined by the Bluetooth standard and second, the standard provides flexibility for different use cases, for example, a variable fixed or adaptive bitpool (one of the parameters that affects audio bitrate).
Would Bluetooth data being sent from the phone to Bluetooth DAC/AMP essentially be digital audio? and then once the data is received, it is converted by the Bluetooth adapter/receiver into electrical audio signal towards the headphones.
The concept is ultimately the same for BT headphones just that the phone sends digital audio via BT -> Bluetooth Headphone DAC converts to Analog.
Yes.
The advantages of NOT using a BT adapter receiver and having a real BT/ANC headphone is that with a BT/ANC headphone you don't need a cable at all …
So it’s just a user functionality thing, although ANC could obviously be an audible audio quality issue/improvement in some scenarios, so that’s a good point.
As far as SQ goes, aptX HD (24/48 576kbps) is the codec that's audibly transparent compared to wired to me, SBC is quite bad because of audible treble roll-off and IMD artifacting.
SBC allows different quality profiles and reduced bitpools, so it is possible a particular device may not support the higher quality profiles or higher bitpool and therefore not be audibly transparent. This was certainly the case with some devices a number of years ago but I would presume is far less common (and maybe never?) these days. With the “high quality” profile, which has been the recommended standard for quite a few years, and standard bitpool/bitrate, all the reliable evidence I’ve seen indicates SBC is audibly transparent.
I only High-Resolution Audio (Hi-Res) and have the option to hardcode 990 kbps.
990kbps is not hi-res, it’s not even CD standard (which is ~1.4mbps). However, as it’s a lossy protocol it should be audibly indistinguishable from the CD standard and therefore audibly indistinguishable from other high bitrate (roughly, >250kbps) lossy protocols, such as SBC or AAC.

G
 
Apr 2, 2024 at 7:51 AM Post #42 of 231
@gregorio
You may be right, last time I was using BT headphones was around 2018 (which is coincidentally around when I joined head-fi), so maybe SBC implementation has gotten better in the interim, but anytime I used SBC I got audibly distorted bass and IMD around the 9k to 10k treble region, after which it would sound deadened by a treble roll-off, it was not a pleasant experience. I was using an LG V20 at that time which supported aptX and I tested it by switching codecs using Dev mode, so it was sighted and posaibly contaminated by bias, but I think it's audible in recordings too.
 
Apr 2, 2024 at 9:31 AM Post #43 of 231
990kbps is not hi-res, it’s not even CD standard (which is ~1.4mbps). However, as it’s a lossy protocol it should be audibly indistinguishable from the CD standard and therefore audibly indistinguishable from other high bitrate (roughly, >250kbps) lossy protocols, such as SBC or AAC.
Do you mean that SQ LDAC = SBC ?

Bluetooth codecs
SBC
SBC codec logo
16 bit16 kHz, 32 kHz, 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz48.0 kHz320 kbps2003~ 200-300 ms
LDAC
LDAC Codec logo
24 bit44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 96 kHz96.0 kHz990 kbps2015~ 200-400 ms
 
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Apr 2, 2024 at 8:49 PM Post #44 of 231
Yes, although that should be true of any Bluetooth chip. Like USB, Ethernet and other protocols, it’s a quite complex hierarchy of standardisation development. You have an international organisation (in this case the Bluetooth SIG, Special Interest Group) comprised of study, expert and working groups, and a membership that votes on their proposals and research findings. Then it’s passed on to a major international standards organisation, in the case of Bluetooth that would be the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers), to further examine and then ratify it as an “international standard”. In order to legally advertise your device as “Bluetooth” it must comply with the published standards and be “certified” (by the Bluetooth SIG). So intrinsically any Bluetooth chip must perform its task identically, however in practice that’s not necessarily the case for two reasons: First, there’s nothing to stop a manufacturer from bolting on their own audio protocol in addition to what is defined by the Bluetooth standard and second, the standard provides flexibility for different use cases, for example, a variable fixed or adaptive bitpool (one of the parameters that affects audio bitrate).
Thank you for this!
SBC allows different quality profiles and reduced bitpools, so it is possible a particular device may not support the higher quality profiles or higher bitpool and therefore not be audibly transparent. This was certainly the case with some devices a number of years ago but I would presume is far less common (and maybe never?) these days. With the “high quality” profile, which has been the recommended standard for quite a few years, and standard bitpool/bitrate, all the reliable evidence I’ve seen indicates SBC is audibly transparent.

990kbps is not hi-res, it’s not even CD standard (which is ~1.4mbps). However, as it’s a lossy protocol it should be audibly indistinguishable from the CD standard and therefore audibly indistinguishable from other high bitrate (roughly, >250kbps) lossy protocols, such as SBC or AAC.

G
Also Gregario,
I got curious and ended up going down the rabbit hole and installed Foobar and ABX extension tested out 160 kbps vs CD ripped FLAC and 192 kbps vs Audio CD/FLAC.

For LAME mp3 at 160 kbps. I have failed many times and had to replay certain parts over and over and in order to get mixed results. I would say 192 kbps Lame mp3 would be completely audibly transparent to me. I still can't believe I can't tell difference between that and cd quality for some of my favorite tracks.
I was using my HD600 connected to my laptop. I don't have a Bluetooth headphone to try this with yet.

I know I am not an audio engineer lol. But damn I was shocked, my hearing isn't as great as others on this site

Based on these tests since SBC is around 250-320 kbps? I can only assume it is audibly transparent for me too, assuming my current devices support the higher pools.
 
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Apr 2, 2024 at 9:14 PM Post #45 of 231
For LAME mp3 at 160 kbps. I have failed many times and had to replay certain parts over and over and in order to get mixed results. I would say 192 kbps Lame mp3 would be completely audibly transparent to me. I still can't believe I can't tell difference between that and cd quality for some of my favorite tracks.
I was using my HD600 connected to my laptop. I don't have a Bluetooth headphone to try this with yet.

I know I am not an audio engineer lol. But damn I was shocked, my hearing isn't as great as others on this site

Based on these tests since SBC is around 250-320 kbps? I can only assume it is audibly transparent for me too, assuming my current devices support the higher pools.

Your hearing is probably perfectly fine. In real blind tests many people -- that saying they hearing all this (big) differences between different codecs, bitrates, lossy vs lossless, CD vs hi-res, wired vs wireless, or between several DAPs, amps, DACs, cables, etc -- they will failing again and again this tests.

The 2 very more important things, that are absolutely real and don't requiring golden ears, are: a) differences in tonal balance/frequency response, and b) differences in recording/mastering quality. A 128kbps well-mastered track/file will sounding very better with a good bluetooth headphone than a poor master in hi-res with a summit-fi wired headphone.

Unfortunately, there is tremendous amount of exaggeration and BS that people posting in audio forums. People with little or no experience in audio often will believing a lot of this BS and often will spending a lot of money that isn't necessary in different aspects of audio. But even in this cases, many people will wanting believing that they're hearing (big) differences between A, B and C, when in reality they don't, because they already spending a lot of money. The name for this is 'confirmation bias'. With a little training you can learning hearing some real very small (but often insignificant) differences, but not in the big way that many, many people often describing/exaggerating in this forums.
 
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