[Ryokan]

Not only the people mentioned but many other people/composers/artists not mentioned who were influenced by the piece and, contemporary western musical artists and composers “sphere of influence” is of course western music, who else should it be? In addition, we have all the western classical music history text books, plus all the universities and other education institutions around the world which teach the history of C20th classical music and of course those who study at those institutions.

Students are exposed to a lot of politics studying any subject at Uni level. I know first hand.

I don’t need to guess, it’s already happened, it’s already part of classical music history and you cannot simply erase history because you don’t like it. Hilter tried and failed, so did Stalin. In fact Hilter inadvertently achieved the exact opposite of his goal but don’t let that put you off from trying!!

G

Ah eventually I guess the conversation had to eventually reference this, is it a way to silence people for fear of being likened to them?

I prefer Orwell's rendition:
'And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed – if all records told the same tale – then the lie passed into history and became truth'.


People should be free to believe whatever they want to @gregorio and my belief is 4'33" is not music. It's an interesting concept nothing more.

​

 

[bigshot]

I’m not lying. I mean what I say. The emperor is naked.

 

[Ryokan]

I read a Buddhist story once: A monk was being questioned on life matters and the questioning became more and more philosophical and especially on metaphysics. The monk obviously couldn't answer the questions so you know what he did? He sat back and laughed and said to the student 'have a cup of tea'!
I think we should all - 'have a cup of tea!'

 

[gregorio]

Students are exposed to a lot of politics studying any subject at Uni level.

But not historical facts? Even if they’re studying the history of music?

Ah eventually I guess the conversation had to eventually reference this, is it a way to silence people for fear of being likened to them?

No, it’s simple historical fact. Both Hilter and Stalin tried to change the history of music and stifle the contemporary classical music of their time. Their attempts backfired, contemporary classical music was influence by both Hilter and Stalin but pretty much in the opposite way to what they intended.

People should be free to believe whatever they want to @gregorio but my belief is 4'33" is not music.

Which is fine, you’re entirely entitled to believe what you want.

It's an interesting concept nothing more.

That’s a false assertion. Clearly it is significantly more, for example an important influence on other composers and artists and on the development/evolution of other classical music genres. Your belief, right or wrong, does NOT define or change the historical facts!

I’m not lying

You state a falsehood, it’s explained/demonstrated to be a falsehood and you deliberately repeat it as fact again. How is that not lying?

G

 

[bigshot]

It isn’t lying because it’s what I honestly believe.

 

[Ryokan]

Your belief, right or wrong, does NOT define or change the historical facts!

G

Yes it's all history now. But imagine if bigshot and I were around back then to remonstrate with the powers that be and gave them our defining thesis statement

Still history is full of lost chances and we must simply endeavor to persevere

 

[gregorio]

Yes it's all history now.

Exactly, nothing you or your beliefs can do about it.

But imagine if bigshot and I were around back then to remonstrate with the powers that be and gave them our defining thesis statement

Who knows but I don’t see how two more voices would have made any difference. If anything, as castleofargh also effectively stated, the more dissent the more that will drive some artists to rebel against it. Same with say Beethoven’s 9th or The Rites of Spring, in fact in the case of the latter, you might have gotten no further than being one of those who were killed!

G

 

[Ryokan]

Exactly, nothing you or your beliefs can do about it.

Who knows but I don’t see how two more voices would have made any difference. If anything, as castleofargh also effectively stated, the more dissent the more that will drive some artists to rebel against it. Same with say Beethoven’s 9th or The Rites of Spring, in fact in the case of the latter, you might have gotten no further than being one of those who were killed!

G

Not all have met their fate standing up for their beliefs through history (especially in times so recent) in fact some are still remembered with reverence to this day and were sometimes aided by those in unlooked for quarters.

 

[bigshot]

If I believe what I say, I'm not lying. Your characterization of me as a liar is false. You should acknowledge that and apologize.