[audiobill]

By the way: Is this DAC a balanced one, or an unbalanced/single ended design ?

It is balanced, the DAC modules state "balanced" on their casing.

 

[Conan1974]

Thanks. I understand it may be a pointless comparision. I just want to read what others think in terms of this price category. Perhaps it just boils down to if someone prefers R2R or Sigma Delta, but I want to read it from those who have heard both of these DACs.

It is not a pointless comparison.
Does not matter if it's r2r or Delta Sigma. They are dacs. That is it.
It looks like, for me of course, all the companies are just using their names and rising the prices sky high.
Why I think so?
I got a Gato Audio DIA250s amp.
Vs the AKM 4497 from mine Singxer headphone amp - first I felt like the Singxer sounds not as loud. Some month later, compared it again and this time did not hear a difference.
VS Primare CD35, sounded same as the Gato. There is a Sabre dac built in.
In the end, I have reached for R2R in a form of Spring 3. I thought, not going to go for Ares, but directly for a higher level.
Only difference I could hear was that the Holo was playing louder. Difference I could level up on the Gato by just turning the volume up.
I connected this the way that, i could switch the source in a matter of second. So the difference was clearly hearable.

I am not saying that they do not sound good, just that the companies ask crazy money for what they offer.
Quality that we can have for less money.
I just hate when someone is trying to sell something, telling how amazing it is, describing the differences as day and night, and than you buy it and shock. The only thought that comes at this moment is, give me mine money back.
I know is sad. I was planning to change the set up every 4,5 years, but after those comparisons I ask myself - for what?

 

[tassardar]

Running the LAiV harmony into the Warwick bravura was a surprisingly good experience. This is my testing area so ignore the stuff stacked around haha

 

[tassardar]

It is not a pointless comparison.
Does not matter if it's r2r or Delta Sigma. They are dacs. That is it.
It looks like, for me of course, all the companies are just using their names and rising the prices sky high.
Why I think so?
I got a Gato Audio DIA250s amp.
Vs the AKM 4497 from mine Singxer headphone amp - first I felt like the Singxer sounds not as loud. Some month later, compared it again and this time did not hear a difference.
VS Primare CD35, sounded same as the Gato. There is a Sabre dac built in.
In the end, I have reached for R2R in a form of Spring 3. I thought, not going to go for Ares, but directly for a higher level.
Only difference I could hear was that the Holo was playing louder. Difference I could level up on the Gato by just turning the volume up.
I connected this the way that, i could switch the source in a matter of second. So the difference was clearly hearable.

I am not saying that they do not sound good, just that the companies ask crazy money for what they offer.
Quality that we can have for less money.
I just hate when someone is trying to sell something, telling how amazing it is, describing the differences as day and night, and than you buy it and shock. The only thought that comes at this moment is, give me mine money back.
I know is sad. I was planning to change the set up every 4,5 years, but after those comparisons I ask myself - for what?

Actually debatable returns are a real thing. I’m lucky that where I am, almost any major or even obscure brand can be demoed and they let you bring your own stuff to compare. To me is if it makes no diff, I won’t be buying, if it makes a diff, I will try to turn the volume and compare. Sometime it’s just a case of loudness difference. Sometimes I will also do match volume listening.

I think in the end, if you can’t test, it’s hard to ascentate if something makes a diff or not to you. It can be even psychoacoustics. I’m honestly very adverse to DACs as usually they make very little difference. Luckily at least for me, LAiV harmony do some different to my chord, daps, and the built in DAC of my Warwick. And there’s also the part, even if it’s different, is it better? To me at least the LAiV harmony is more like a different taste to my Chord TT and a touch preferred signature to my AK SE300 R2R daps. Not sure if that warrants another DAC, which is what I’m still mulling over as I’m still in the demo phase haha.

I do have to say that beyond sound quality, there is the aesthetics. And at least Harmony looks like a great display piece.

 

[Conan1974]

Actually debatable returns are a real thing. I’m lucky that where I am, almost any major or even obscure brand can be demoed and they let you bring your own stuff to compare. To me is if it makes no diff, I won’t be buying, if it makes a diff, I will try to turn the volume and compare. Sometime it’s just a case of loudness difference. Sometimes I will also do match volume listening.

I think in the end, if you can’t test, it’s hard to ascentate if something makes a diff or not to you. It can be even psychoacoustics. I’m honestly very adverse to DACs as usually they make very little difference. Luckily at least for me, LAiV harmony do some different to my chord, daps, and the built in DAC of my Warwick. And there’s also the part, even if it’s different, is it better? To me at least the LAiV harmony is more like a different taste to my Chord TT and a touch preferred signature to my AK SE300 R2R daps. Not sure if that warrants another DAC, which is what I’m still mulling over as I’m still in the demo phase haha.

I do have to say that beyond sound quality, there is the aesthetics. And at least Harmony looks like a great display piece.

I agree with the aesthetics. I , as we all, as well look at how something looks. It is a big factor.
To test the Holo I had to buy it second hand, lost couple of hundred of Euro.
I would keep it, if it would be a thousand euro dac, but 2 thousand? No way.
Plus like You say, different is not always better. Unfortunately

 

[]eep]

I am also a bit surprised: It is said in the reviews that the resistor have a 0.05 % accuracy. This is actually not very good, far from the 0.01% of, said, TotalDac, and very far from the 0.005% from Musician: Is it a mistake from the reviewers, or are they that bad ?
Normally the accuracy of the resistors make a big difference in sound (but also in price...)

Don't forget that the 0.005 % you mention is done by software and parallelling 4 (?) resistors. That means the actual tolerance per physical resistor is 0.005/2⁴= 0.08. That's just an estimate because tolerances follow a Gauss or bell-curve. By handpicking resistors you decrease the standard deviation thus you are flattening that curve top so increasing the tightness of tolerance.

That's statistic theory. Too long ago that I learned measuring statistics for lab engineer (>40years, yes I'm that old). So I simplified to to factor 2.

Related but interesting: how does one calibrate measuring equipment when you start from scratch? How do you monitor the monitors? And how do you monitor the monitors that monitor the monitors? (From "Enemy of the state").

At what temperature do you measure? Are there other factors like vibration, magnetic field, light or other radiation? Etc.
Does that ring any bells (no pun intended) why the R2R array is encased in the Laiv?

That is why you need to be smart and spend more to improve tolerances. That's why high end equipment is expensive and the law of diminishing returns applies if you want to climb the Gauss mountain.

To put it in 1 sentence: there are no 0.005% tolerance resistors.

 

[OhmsClaw]

Don't forget that the 0.005 % you mention is done by software and parallelling 4 (?) resistors. That means the actual tolerance per physical resistor is 0.005/2⁴= 0.08. That's just an estimate because tolerances follow a Gauss or bell-curve. By handpicking resistors you decrease the standard deviation thus you are flattening that curve top so increasing the tightness of tolerance.

That's statistic theory. Too long ago that I learned measuring statistics for lab engineer (>40years, yes I'm that old). So I simplified to to factor 2.

Related but interesting: how does one calibrate measuring equipment when you start from scratch? How do you monitor the monitors? And how do you monitor the monitors that monitor the monitors? (From "Enemy of the state").

At what temperature do you measure? Are there other factors like vibration, magnetic field, light or other radiation? Etc.
Does that ring any bells (no pun intended) why the R2R array is encased in the Laiv?

That is why you need to be smart and spend more to improve tolerances. That's why high end equipment is expensive and the law of diminishing returns applies if you want to climb the Gauss mountain.

To put it in 1 sentence: there are no 0.005% tolerance resistors.

Vishay makes .005% and .001% but they're not in useful values for R2R applications so it's highly doubtful the single handpicked values are up to this claimed spec.

 

[]eep]

It is not a pointless comparison.
Does not matter if it's r2r or Delta Sigma. They are dacs. That is it.
It looks like, for me of course, all the companies are just using their names and rising the prices sky high.
Why I think so?
I got a Gato Audio DIA250s amp.
Vs the AKM 4497 from mine Singxer headphone amp - first I felt like the Singxer sounds not as loud. Some month later, compared it again and this time did not hear a difference.
VS Primare CD35, sounded same as the Gato. There is a Sabre dac built in.
In the end, I have reached for R2R in a form of Spring 3. I thought, not going to go for Ares, but directly for a higher level.
Only difference I could hear was that the Holo was playing louder. Difference I could level up on the Gato by just turning the volume up.
I connected this the way that, i could switch the source in a matter of second. So the difference was clearly hearable.

I am not saying that they do not sound good, just that the companies ask crazy money for what they offer.
Quality that we can have for less money.
I just hate when someone is trying to sell something, telling how amazing it is, describing the differences as day and night, and than you buy it and shock. The only thought that comes at this moment is, give me mine money back.
I know is sad. I was planning to change the set up every 4,5 years, but after those comparisons I ask myself - for what?

Geen kritiek op jou, wat je zegt doet me ergens aan denken.

I bought my Gato amp150 (pure analog) from someone who thought it would be an upgrade from the Dia250s. But he didn't hear that much difference so he sold it off (lucky me). We had some more discussion about it later why and if this, or that.
I wanted a Gato for the quality and the looks. But I wasn't sure if I would choose the Dia400s like Steve Huff tested (and others) or the Amp150 that are about the same price. But when I played the recorded comparison by Alpha Audio it was clear as day to me the 150 sounded more open and spacious (not to mention pure analog to match with my vinyl setup).

So, why could my friend who sold me the Amp150 not hear any (substantial) difference (IRL!) and why could I hear such a big difference between the same amps even through the YouTube codecs through my humble Ares II and €300 "chifi" translinear current amp? I will tell you, it's not my 'golden ears' nor do I doubt his 'ears' or yours. And by 'ears' I mean the ability to listen and not the bits of crumpled skin covered cartilage on the sides of our noggin.

So, if it is difficult to hear a difference between 2 very different types of amplifier even if it's the same brand, how much more difficult is it to tell any difference between DACs that all 'measure ruler flat'? I agree that it's not a pointless comparison. It serves the same function, so let's see who does it better. Once you define 'better' of course. Why pay extra for 'better' if you can't hear if it is better? Besides the fact that I like looking at my Gato even when it's off. And my cat loves to sleep on it when it's on (on a cover!).

Back to a redefinition of "chifi".
I bought a totally unknown $300 40W amp on AliExpress. Never reviewed anywhere. Except that I have 2 other models of the same brand (Audience) that are built like a tank and sound great. I had heard about the special translinear thing and I was curious. I wanted a less power consuming amp than my 300b tubeamp. So I knew it would be
1 working as expected
2 built well and
3 sound good.
What I did not expect was how good it sounded and how formidable it is. Move over Thomas and Stereo with your $2k 'giant killer'. This is a true giant 'killer' that nobody ever heard of. I first connected my speakers and selected bluetooth to get started asap. I played from my phone and... Mind blown. This was only frackin' BT! So I connected dac and phono-amp and my 300b (with some fine NOS tubes and better 300B's) has been sidelined ever since.
It sounds almost like the 300b in the mids, slightly more air in the highs and much tighter in the bass. Incredible space and transparency.
I recently brought it with me (plus my cheap Teradak r2r) on an audition for buying Magnepans that are notoriously power dependant. They say 100W is a starting point. Here I come with a 40W @8Ω and 70W @4Ω "chifi" amp. The LRS+ (just arrived in NL) sounded good but lacking in bass, and it started to distort when playing really loud electronic bass (infected mushroom). Then to the Magnepan 0.7 I have now. Bass was filling the big treated demoroom. Big low bass. No distortion. It did not flinch. The VU-meters looked like windscreen wipers in a tropical rainstorm but the sound was incredible. And really, really loud. I understand why Freakuence chose the location on and industrial site.

Does the €4500 Gato sound better? Yes, but not evidently so. The mids are a bit sweeter and it has more power reserves. But most of all it has all the connections I need (2x sub out and 1 XLR +4 RCA). It's remarkable how similar the sonic character is to my tubeamp and translinear amp. But that is exactly what I aimed for.

So why pay so much? To save space and to have something that keeps its value that I can really enjoy without any knawing doubts.

Now here is my answer to why I can hear a difference so well. First: 40 years training and experience. Second: speakers. I made my own according to my wishes and experience and craft. I went for speed and transparency coupled with a minimalist design. It's a 1,5 way bipole fullrange with an AMT supertweeter. The crossover is just a bit of bafflestep (the all important midrange sees only 1 resistor) and a 3rd order for the tweeter with high quality MKP caps. That's it. No electronics in the way. Everything coming from 1 spot (3" from centre woofer to tweeter).
The Magnepans are by far not as revealing. These are totally equalising everything but they sound pleasant. I can't hear much of any differences with these.

 

[]eep]

Vishay makes .005% and .001% but they're not in useful values for R2R applications so it's highly doubtful the single handpicked values are up to this claimed spec.

You Just jumped to the (deliberately dumbed down) conclusion and pulled it out of context.
What I meant to explain is that neither Holo Audio nor Denafrips use 0.005% tolerance resistors.

I'd like to see your implication of an R2R dac made with high precision wirewound resistors. Bring a lorry.

 

[OhmsClaw]

You didn't understand a word of what I wrote, did you? Just jumped to the (deliberately dumbed down) conclusion and pulled it out of context.
What I meant to explain is that neither Holo Audio nor Denafrips use 0.005% tolerance resistors.

I'd like to see your implication of an R2R dac made with high precision wirewound resistors. Bring a lorry.

Naw fam. You don't talk to me like that.

 

[Conan1974]

Geen kritiek op jou, wat je zegt doet me ergens aan denken.

I bought my Gato amp150 (pure analog) from someone who thought it would be an upgrade from the Dia250s. But he didn't hear that much difference so he sold it off (lucky me). We had some more discussion about it later why and if this, or that.
I wanted a Gato for the quality and the looks. But I wasn't sure if I would choose the Dia400s like Steve Huff tested (and others) or the Amp150 that are about the same price. But when I played the recorded comparison by Alpha Audio it was clear as day to me the 150 sounded more open and spacious (not to mention pure analog to match with my vinyl setup).

So, why could my friend who sold me the Amp150 not hear any (substantial) difference (IRL!) and why could I hear such a big difference between the same amps even through the YouTube codecs through my humble Ares II and €300 "chifi" translinear current amp? I will tell you, it's not my 'golden ears' nor do I doubt his 'ears' or yours. And by 'ears' I mean the ability to listen and not the bits of crumpled skin covered cartilage on the sides of our noggin.

So, if it is difficult to hear a difference between 2 very different types of amplifier even if it's the same brand, how much more difficult is it to tell any difference between DACs that all 'measure ruler flat'? I agree that it's not a pointless comparison. It serves the same function, so let's see who does it better. Once you define 'better' of course. Why pay extra for 'better' if you can't hear if it is better? Besides the fact that I like looking at my Gato even when it's off. And my cat loves to sleep on it when it's on (on a cover!).

Back to a redefinition of "chifi".
I bought a totally unknown $300 40W amp on AliExpress. Never reviewed anywhere. Except that I have 2 other models of the same brand (Audience) that are built like a tank and sound great. I had heard about the special translinear thing and I was curious. I wanted a less power consuming amp than my 300b tubeamp. So I knew it would be
1 working as expected
2 built well and
3 sound good.
What I did not expect was how good it sounded and how formidable it is. Move over Thomas and Stereo with your $2k 'giant killer'. This is a true giant 'killer' that nobody ever heard of. I first connected my speakers and selected bluetooth to get started asap. I played from my phone and... Mind blown. This was only frackin' BT! So I connected dac and phono-amp and my 300b (with some fine NOS tubes and better 300B's) has been sidelined ever since.
It sounds almost like the 300b in the mids, slightly more air in the highs and much tighter in the bass. Incredible space and transparency.
I recently brought it with me (plus my cheap Teradak r2r) on an audition for buying Magnepans that are notoriously power dependant. They say 100W is a starting point. Here I come with a 40W @8Ω and 70W @4Ω "chifi" amp. The LRS+ (just arrived in NL) sounded good but lacking in bass, and it started to distort when playing really loud electronic bass (infected mushroom). Then to the Magnepan 0.7 I have now. Bass was filling the big treated demoroom. Big low bass. No distortion. It did not flinch. The VU-meters looked like windscreen wipers in a tropical rainstorm but the sound was incredible. And really, really loud. I understand why Freakuence chose the location on and industrial site.

Does the €4500 Gato sound better? Yes, but not evidently so. The mids are a bit sweeter and it has more power reserves. But most of all it has all the connections I need (2x sub out and 1 XLR +4 RCA). It's remarkable how similar the sonic character is to my tubeamp and translinear amp. But that is exactly what I aimed for.

So why pay so much? To save space and to have something that keeps its value that I can really enjoy without any knawing doubts.

Now here is my answer to why I can hear a difference so well. First: 40 years training and experience. Second: speakers. I made my own according to my wishes and experience and craft. I went for speed and transparency coupled with a minimalist design. It's a 1,5 way bipole fullrange with an AMT supertweeter. The crossover is just a bit of bafflestep (the all important midrange sees only 1 resistor) and a 3rd order for the tweeter with high quality MKP caps. That's it. No electronics in the way. Everything coming from 1 spot (3" from centre woofer to tweeter).
The Magnepans are by far not as revealing. These are totally equalising everything but they sound pleasant. I can't hear much of any differences with these.

Hm, is it possible?
I bought the Amp150 to test it vs the DIA250s. I sold it via Marktplaats in The Netherlands. The comparison did not showed obvious differences. Maybe cause of the time I needed to switch the cables, although I was thinking about keeping it, just because I would need a dac, I decided to sell it.
You have a Denafrips Ares.
Het wereld is echt klein.

 

[]eep]

Hm, is it possible?
I bought the Amp150 to test it vs the DIA250s. I sold it via Marktplaats in The Netherlands. The comparison did not showed obvious differences. Maybe cause of the time I needed to switch the cables, although I was thinking about keeping it, just because I would need a dac, I decided to sell it.
You have a Denafrips Ares.
Het wereld is echt klein.

Lol


Yup! Thank you for the amp. If you still want the Ares, just ask. I thought it was you. But we all like our avatars to have a little bit of anonymity.

 

[]eep]

Naw fam. You don't talk to me like that.

I just did.

But maybe you shouldn't talk to me like that. I understand I was rambling about statistics. Not everyone understands it so I tried to give a snap conclusion. But you blew that out of proportion with one quick snarky reply you didn't put any effort in.

I was just trying to explain why Laiv talks about 0.05% resistors and other brands are boasting 0.005%. That is a big difference. But is comparing apples and oranges. One resistor does not have a tolerance. It just has a value within expected deviance from the nominal value. Picking samples changes everything. And a got all that from just reading their webpage...

So this explains why those values need to be taken IN CONTEXT. Liav says what they start with, the others boast with what they achieved with those.

You were totally not helping with a smartass remark about some wirewound resistors that are for totally different purposes. Yes, I didn't say that, to not make it even more boring. And no, I didn't look it up either before you mentioned it. I don't appreciate you robbing me of my time while I'm trying to help someone.